Curse

reetkever · Feb 25, 2007, 04:59 PM // 16:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by EPO Bot

I think a lot of players who complain just want this game to be WoW where the hardest areas give the best loot, wile in THIS game the hard areas just give items that proove you can handle them (or buy them). Doa weapons are for the best of the best. That means not you and me.

Another thing you can compare it to:

GW rewards: Medals made of fake gold like the olimpic games
WoW rewards: über loot like sponsored professional sports

How does better loot make GW look like WoW? And since when do quests give items that prove I can handle them? If you're talking about the inscribed secrets, I trade them in for a superior salvage kit, which is used up the next day.

Harder areas SHOULD give better loot. Otherwise there is no reason to do them.

How about this:

GW rewards at this moment: A free glass of water after getting tortured 24 hours long.

Bryant Again · Feb 25, 2007, 05:05 PM // 17:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by EPO Bot

I think a lot of players who complain just want this game to be WoW where the hardest areas give the best loot, wile in THIS game the hard areas just give items that proove you can handle them (or buy them). Doa weapons are for the best of the best. That means not you and me.

Another thing you can compare it to:

GW rewards: Medals made of fake gold like the olimpic games
WoW rewards: über loot like sponsored professional sports

He's talking about the Realm of Torment, by the way

Quote:

Originally Posted by reetkever

GW rewards at this moment: A free glass of water after getting tortured 24 hours long.

That's actually the most accurate analogy I've seen in awhile.

Gli · Feb 25, 2007, 05:13 PM // 17:13

"Hello there, mister Secret Keeper, sir. I'm sure glad I made it past all those demons. Good golly, them's tough cookies. Earned myself some of these Inscribed Secrets. Could you trade me a bag for one of them please? Much obliged."

Jetdoc · Feb 25, 2007, 05:17 PM // 17:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by reetkever

Harder areas SHOULD give better loot. Otherwise there is no reason to do them.

...other than the satisfaction of knowing that you completed them?

Personally, I am surprised that "loot" really defines whether an area is fun or not. In the mini-quests during the Dragon Festival, I remember how many people complained about only getting XXX amount of Jade Wind Orbs after completing that pretty difficult "special" series of quests.

Yet, that was one of the most fun things I've done in Guild Wars. I guess each person has their own "thing" that drives their fun...I'm surprised that, with the relative meaningless value of gold/items nowadays (with the addition of inscriptions), people still place so much emphasis on wealth.

frojack · Feb 25, 2007, 05:31 PM // 17:31

I think Anet missed the mark with this one...

Quite simply DoA is too hard to be 'fun'. Realm of Torment isn't worth the effort even though it's quite manageable. Truth being most people only went in because they had to (finishing the story). They won't return. I sure as hell didn't.
Enemy patrols feel cheap. Quickening Zephyr seemingly not affecting enemy casters. Plus the ultimate kick the face, Cry of Torment (Woohoo! Look! I'm 2+ people!). All for what? Poor drops and elite caps? Yeah...
(Though I must say, grinding through it 7+ times on different characters feels somewhat sadistic _-_).

I'm sure this isn't falling on deaf ears (10+ pages? Hell no). The question is what are they prepared to do about it. A response would be interesting. Oh and in regards to DoA, something better than '...well people have beaten it you know?' would be nice. In this area, your 'fun' balance is broken. Sadly there just isn't any way around that point...

Note: Apologies, but I couldn't care less about what a reviewer has to say. I'm playing the game already (like the rest of you) so I don't really need to know what he thinks about it. Call me a fool if you feel the need...

reetkever · Feb 25, 2007, 06:10 PM // 18:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetdoc

...other than the satisfaction of knowing that you completed them?

Personally, I am surprised that "loot" really defines whether an area is fun or not. In the mini-quests during the Dragon Festival, I remember how many people complained about only getting XXX amount of Jade Wind Orbs after completing that pretty difficult "special" series of quests.

Yet, that was one of the most fun things I've done in Guild Wars. I guess each person has their own "thing" that drives their fun...I'm surprised that, with the relative meaningless value of gold/items nowadays (with the addition of inscriptions), people still place so much emphasis on wealth.

Well I'm VERY satisfied after knowing I completed that god-aweful quests :P

The quests aren't fun, even with good loot, but with the loot, there's a reason to do the quests. Things like Defending Droknar's Forge, Villainy of Galrath etc. They ARE fun. They're hard, but not undo-able, and everyone has an equal chance of beating them. Also, they don't annoy the hell out of someone.

Realm of Torment quests are just darned annoying. 'Ohh I almost FINALLY killed the stupid ranger... omfg it duplicated again... for the 6th time -.-'

And then the dumb Area effects. It's just so annoying to change skills everytime you get into a new area. Realm of Torment monsters are boring to fight against, the fights take very long and are very frustrating cause of duplicating, and there are way too many of em bunched together.

Ever saw on tv how people eat dog sh!t for 50 bucks? Well RoT is the same, but then without the 50 bucks.

Andisa Kalorn · Feb 25, 2007, 06:59 PM // 18:59

Ok, so then imagine the rewards for quests like breaking the broken was much higher... like 20k. Would that make it fun? No, then you'd just have more people whining that they couldn't do it because they want the reward and can't get it. Enough people already whine about things that you have to work to get, like fow armor and crystalline swords.

You can change the reward all you want, but it's still the SAME quest. If you don't like torment demons, then you still won't like them if they drop phat loot. In fact, you'd get annoyed that you had to fight these stupid creatures to get the rewards.

If you don't like RoT, then you should be happy that the quest rewards aren't huge. That way, you can simply ignore the side quests and feel like you aren't missing anything. You can just blow through RoT, and then go back to somewhere more fun to farm. If the rewards were big, you'd be annoyed that you were being "forced" to do RoT quests to get the rewards.

It seems like the issue is that people don't like RoT itself. It's too dark and depressing, or they hate the torment demons, or the area effects, etc. Therefore, the key to making it "better" would be to fix THOSE things. Not say "well if you torture yourself for several hours we'll give you something cool". I would much rather do something fun for several hours for a mediocre reward than do something I hate for some meaningless in-game money. Or perhaps people like the idea of a game that's more like work?

reetkever · Feb 25, 2007, 07:24 PM // 19:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andisa Kalorn

Ok, so then imagine the rewards for quests like breaking the broken was much higher... like 20k. Would that make it fun? No, then you'd just have more people whining that they couldn't do it because they want the reward and can't get it. Enough people already whine about things that you have to work to get, like fow armor and crystalline swords.

You can change the reward all you want, but it's still the SAME quest. If you don't like torment demons, then you still won't like them if they drop phat loot. In fact, you'd get annoyed that you had to fight these stupid creatures to get the rewards.

If you don't like RoT, then you should be happy that the quest rewards aren't huge. That way, you can simply ignore the side quests and feel like you aren't missing anything. You can just blow through RoT, and then go back to somewhere more fun to farm. If the rewards were big, you'd be annoyed that you were being "forced" to do RoT quests to get the rewards.

It seems like the issue is that people don't like RoT itself. It's too dark and depressing, or they hate the torment demons, or the area effects, etc. Therefore, the key to making it "better" would be to fix THOSE things. Not say "well if you torture yourself for several hours we'll give you something cool". I would much rather do something fun for several hours for a mediocre reward than do something I hate for some meaningless in-game money. Or perhaps people like the idea of a game that's more like work?

I think that if the reward for hard quests is bigger, people will try harder for the quests.

It's much like farming, really. Farming itself is rather boring, but it's the result that matters. There are of course people who don't like to farm, cause it gives them a feeling that they're going through too much trouble for gold. These people just ignore farming.
The same would happen with the quests, some people would just ignore it. But now, about EVERYONE ignores the quests. Maybe people do them once or twice, but I don;t know anyone who'd go through these dumb quests 8 times.

If there was a good quest reward, I would do the quest, and it's even good for PuG-ing, since it's easier and the reward is the same for everyone. (And I think the quests will become popular with a huge reward such as 20K. Also, getting annoyed over something you chose to do is kinda weird. I got annoyed over the quests, but I didn't know they were so lame back then.

As it is now, it can't get any worse, cause I don't think alot of people actually do the quests in RoT (there are exceptions, of course), so having rewards improve can only make it better.

cthulhu reborn · Feb 25, 2007, 07:26 PM // 19:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andisa Kalorn

Ok, so then imagine the rewards for quests like breaking the broken was much higher... like 20k.

Is cash the only reward you can possibly imagine? You always come back to the cash whereas there are plenty of other type of rewards possible.

Even if it is the same quest, it's the purpose that gives the motivation to go out and do it. Especially if you've been playing for a while and have a lot of characters to bring through the same quests, a nice reward (which does NOT have to be cash) is a nice motivator. The idea of getting a sense of accomplishment from completing the area only works for one or two characters...not ten.

And the other guy that said that the DoA golds are only for the best players certainly doesn't understand the game much. Anybody with lots of cash can get them without playing DoA. And to play DoA you do not have to be the best but just a team that works together and uses the same trick over and over again for 8 hours...Not my idea of the best gamers...the best chore-gamers yes...but not necessarily the best gamers.

Andisa Kalorn · Feb 25, 2007, 08:23 PM // 20:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by reetkever

Maybe people do them once or twice, but I don;t know anyone who'd go through these dumb quests 8 times.

With the exception of Troubled Keeper, I've done all the RoT quests 6 times, and I plan to do them more when my other characters get there. I find I feel a sense of accomplishment knowing that through skill I can defeat monsters using brute force and overpowered skills. To me, that's what GW is about.

The RoT quests are my favourite in the game. There's that sense of accomplishment, which is especially the case when I get through the quests without dying. And there's the fact that I like the plot behind them. (Yes, some people actually like the PLOT of the game and not just making money). Also, I find I make a lot of money while doing these quests, and a lot of xp. I also pick up quite a bit of lightbringer points at the same time. IMO, it's far more interesting getting LB points while questing than just killing things for no other reason.

I really don't think adding bigger rewards would suddenly make it fun. I remember the first time the canthan elite missions were opened to the public. OMG did people ever complain a lot about those missions. And the rewards for those missions are not miniscule. It was because they wanted those rewards that they tried so hard and got so frustrated. Also, remember all the whining about THK? The "reward" of that was advancing to the fire islands, which was fairly desirable. And I remember many people ragequiting over that. My point is that increased motivation to get something at the end of a quest or mission does NOT decrease frustration for most people.

As for considering other rewards... I used the example of money because that's what most people seem to want. Few people want more xp. There could be skill rewards but that would be pointless so far into the game... I'm pretty sure most people have the skills they want by that time. I do agree that there should be more lightbringer points for the quests... but that goes for quests in the desolation and vabbi too, as far as I'm concerned. In the Desolation, masters quests get you all of 15 lightbringer points. If that's not a disappointment, then I don't know what is. But we're not talking about the Desolation, and at least master's quests in RoT give you 100 points.

Or perhaps they could make Razah a reward for an RoT quest. Now THERE's a case of risk/cost vs. reward being severely unbalanced. Especially given how easy it is to unlock him through pvp.

Edit: Upon further consideration, I can think of another way to improve the experience of questing in RoT. Make the heroes and henchies actually follow called targets. I find that most problems occur because they will randomly attack whatever creature they want, and nowhere is this more problematic than in RoT. It can be annoying to be working at killing a rain of terror, and when you finish realize there's now 3 arms of insanity instead of one, even though it's nowhere near your target. Or, the dreaded scenario of your target using call to the torment, and trying to kill it, and being the ONLY one attacking it. Which is especially annoying when playing a monk.

Bryant Again · Feb 25, 2007, 08:30 PM // 20:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andisa Kalorn

With the exception of Troubled Keeper, I've done all the RoT quests 6 times, and I plan to do them more when my other characters get there. I find I feel a sense of accomplishment knowing that through skill I can defeat monsters using brute force and overpowered skills. To me, that's what GW is about.

The RoT quests are my favourite in the game. There's that sense of accomplishment, which is especially the case when I get through the quests without dying. And there's the fact that I like the plot behind them. (Yes, some people actually like the PLOT of the game and not just making money). Also, I find I make a lot of money while doing these quests, and a lot of xp. I also pick up quite a bit of lightbringer points at the same time. IMO, it's far more interesting getting LB points while questing than just killing things for no other reason.

*sigh*...If only more people could find the satisfaction as you do when completeing those quests.

I'm not calling you out or making fun. It's admirable, and I wish I felt the same as well.

LifeInfusion · Feb 25, 2007, 08:50 PM // 20:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by reetkever

As it is now, it can't get any worse, cause I don't think alot of people actually do the quests in RoT (there are exceptions, of course), so having rewards improve can only make it better.

The problem is not that they are hard. It is that people don't bother with them. That means you rely on heroes and henchman that stand in AOE, don't manage energy, and have mediocre intelligence as to skill usage. Then the problem remains as to PUG players who don't got a clue.

So the only way to go is guild/alliance groups for the masters difficulty ones. With heroes and henchman it takes dp and an hour or two to do the masters ones.

reetkever · Feb 25, 2007, 08:55 PM // 20:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andisa Kalorn

With the exception of Troubled Keeper, I've done all the RoT quests 6 times, and I plan to do them more when my other characters get there. I find I feel a sense of accomplishment knowing that through skill I can defeat monsters using brute force and overpowered skills. To me, that's what GW is about.

The RoT quests are my favourite in the game. There's that sense of accomplishment, which is especially the case when I get through the quests without dying. And there's the fact that I like the plot behind them. (Yes, some people actually like the PLOT of the game and not just making money). Also, I find I make a lot of money while doing these quests, and a lot of xp. I also pick up quite a bit of lightbringer points at the same time. IMO, it's far more interesting getting LB points while questing than just killing things for no other reason.

I really don't think adding bigger rewards would suddenly make it fun. I remember the first time the canthan elite missions were opened to the public. OMG did people ever complain a lot about those missions. And the rewards for those missions are not miniscule. It was because they wanted those rewards that they tried so hard and got so frustrated. Also, remember all the whining about THK? The "reward" of that was advancing to the fire islands, which was fairly desirable. And I remember many people ragequiting over that. My point is that increased motivation to get something at the end of a quest or mission does NOT decrease frustration for most people.

As for considering other rewards... I used the example of money because that's what most people seem to want. Few people want more xp. There could be skill rewards but that would be pointless so far into the game... I'm pretty sure most people have the skills they want by that time. I do agree that there should be more lightbringer points for the quests... but that goes for quests in the desolation and vabbi too, as far as I'm concerned. In the Desolation, masters quests get you all of 15 lightbringer points. If that's not a disappointment, then I don't know what is. But we're not talking about the Desolation, and at least master's quests in RoT give you 100 points.

Or perhaps they could make Razah a reward for an RoT quest. Now THERE's a case of risk/cost vs. reward being severely unbalanced. Especially given how easy it is to unlock him through pvp.

Well now I know 1 person who wants to do the aweful quests and get no reward at all. The plot is nice, but I know the plot after doing the quest even once. And for alot of trouble, I don't even want to know the plot. Making money isn't important, but why else do dumb and troublesome quests in a boring and troublesome land over and over again? Questing for Lightbringer points doesn't work for me either, since I simply forget that I have the *insert monster type*-Hunt on me. Questing is equal to killing monsters for no reason to me.

Making rewards bigger won't make the actual quests more fun, but it will make it more interesting to do the quests for alot of people. Elite missions have too small rewards for all that trouble (come on, 5 hours of pain to maybe even get killed at the boss. And when you finally beat it, there's no guarantee of YOU getting a green).

Getting to the Ember Light Camp after THK isn't a reward, it's needed to continue the game. But Thunderhead Keep is a bad example, since it doesn't have cheating duplicating monsters, depressing scenery and lame area effects.

Having Razah as a quest reward IS a good idea. Rewards don't have to be money, they have to be interesting. How about 5 random vials of dye? I always love to do the dye trader quest cause I have a chance on a black/white dyé.

Omega X · Feb 25, 2007, 09:24 PM // 21:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by reetkever

Making rewards bigger won't make the actual quests more fun, but it will make it more interesting to do the quests for alot of people.

I agree with this. There should be more to a quest reward if its a tough quest to do.

Quote:

Having Razah as a quest reward IS a good idea. Rewards don't have to be money, they have to be interesting. How about 5 random vials of dye? I always love to do the dye trader quest cause I have a chance on a black/white dyé.

I thought that he was a quest reward? Its just that you have to torture yourself in DoA in order to get him.

Darksun · Feb 25, 2007, 09:26 PM // 21:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

This isn't DoA guys, this is RoT. If this is the kind of experience you're having in RoT, you simply aren't going to get respect on this forum, because a lot of the people who post here (especially the most vocal ones) can do RoT with heroes and no DP. Therefore, people aren't going to take his opinion seriously.

Wait, are you sure? I thought RoT was easier than the Ring of Fire! I hench the whole thing. It's not that bad if you take it slow & focus on 1 mob at a time. I really don't know what he's talking about with the whole random aggro thing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andisa Kalorn

With the exception of Troubled Keeper, I've done all the RoT quests 6 times, and I plan to do them more when my other characters get there. I find I feel a sense of accomplishment knowing that through skill I can defeat monsters using brute force and overpowered skills. To me, that's what GW is about.

Heck yeah. The quest about helping the Forgotten was great. I had a Forgotten sage follow me through the whole map healing my party! It was great!
But I also aggree they need to make more, varied things to work towards. It may be as simple as adding really cool looking 15k weapons crafters or auras you get for quests or being able to craft your own items, or something. Just more things you can choose to do as goals. The titles are like a band-aid. The cheepest possible thing they could make you work toward. A name. I think they can do WAY better than that. 15k armor is probably the coolest thing they have in the game as an "extra" goal. And most of it is kinda meh.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bamm bamm bamm

There's a joke in there somewhere.

LOL!

EPO Bot · Feb 25, 2007, 09:27 PM // 21:27

So people are complaining about REGULAR Rot being too hard?
Weird, i tought everyone tought the game was too easy.Rot gives those guys what they want and they whine again.

Perhaps you guys should work on those lightbringer points a bit. Even casuals can become lvl4 easily.But i mostly see lvl1's and a few lvl2's in Rot, wile brave lightbringer is something you should have after the desolation.

My conclusion: Many players rush trough the game and get pissed if the game suddenly becomes too hard. Kill those djinn and margonites folks, 20% extra damage output is not laughable in Rot. It works on your heros too, and btw.: heroes can use customized items as well.

reetkever · Feb 25, 2007, 10:25 PM // 22:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by EPO Bot

So people are complaining about REGULAR Rot being too hard?
Weird, i tought everyone tought the game was too easy.Rot gives those guys what they want and they whine again.

Perhaps you guys should work on those lightbringer points a bit. Even casuals can become lvl4 easily.But i mostly see lvl1's and a few lvl2's in Rot, wile brave lightbringer is something you should have after the desolation.

My conclusion: Many players rush trough the game and get pissed if the game suddenly becomes too hard. Kill those djinn and margonites folks, 20% extra damage output is not laughable in Rot. It works on your heros too, and btw.: heroes can use customized items as well.

Only a few people find the game too easy. Alot of people still have problems with lots of quests. (Just died with Assault on the Kodash again -.-)

There are only a few people that find the game too easy, and these people should probably just try and solo DoA :P

RoT isn't too HARD, it's just boring as hell, and annoying too.

EPO Bot · Feb 25, 2007, 10:54 PM // 22:54

Perhaps, but every time a margonite bites the dust, it's a little christmas in my mind.

Markaedw · Feb 26, 2007, 12:43 AM // 00:43

What you aren't reading are the comments; I saw at least one person say that they decided not to buy GW based on his review.

RTSFirebat · Feb 26, 2007, 06:00 AM // 06:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Markaedw

What you aren't reading are the comments; I saw at least one person say that they decided not to buy GW based on his review.

That person is a fool then. That Game Mag editor threw a tantrum, and you be daft to take his word for it alone. Besides 1 person isn't any loss.